INTERVIEW WITH OZZIE STEVENS

 INTERVIEW WITH OZZIE STEVENS

See a lot of guys are big name because other people build their name up or whatever. People who don’t fight dogs, they do all kinds of build up on certain people. Their idols, and they might come up with this and this one tells that one and they come up with a big story. The way I look at it, because a guy wins all kinds of fights on one end of town or one state and another guy wins the same amount of fights somewhere else. The difference is, who did you match into? Some kind of amateurs that was easy to beat? Because I know some of the biggest guys that have done some dirty work. Matched into dogs that previously lost… You know, but if I say stuff Fat Bill would put it right in there! He should know himself.

A lot of different dog men, the dummies in the dog game now, they hear these names and they think these guys were great dog men. They never fought a dog in their life. Never did nothing. Some guys that sold dogs for big, big money. I sold Troll to Castillo for $1,500. He sold it to the Germans for $8,000. He certainly didn’t need any money. He had a big job with Ford. He was a 20 year man with Ford. He didn’t work in the factory; he had like a foreman type job. He was up there. His (Castillo) first fight he lost. Then after that he got a good bitch, and I gave him a lot of tips on c

onditioning and he won three times with the bitch. That’s all he ever did (Castillo). He had four fights. A lot of guys, they hear these names plastered everywhere. Jack Kelly plastered everything. Whoever was his friend, you got big recognition. I matched into Jack Kelly in New York. Jack Kelly, the editor of the magazine he was just starting out. I’m trying to think what year that was. 76? Yeah, 1976. He called me on to come to New York. So I drove up there with Bryan. Bryan, who had Snake JR., Big Brad, Big Brad had Red Danger and he is the one that brought Angus here. Big Brad brought Angus from California then he ended up selling him to Billy Stepp. Now uh, thinking back. Brad and Bryan went with me. We had a camper on a pickup truck. So we drove up to New York City. I get there, and I agreed to meet Jack Kelly. So we are going to fight on Sunday morning and this was Saturday. So we call him, tell him where we were. Tell him to pick us up and take us to the construction site. Pulled the truck with the camper inside the construction site, it’s all big 10 foot high cyclone fence. Pulled inside of there and he just locked us in there. We had food in the camper, we had water. We had everything you needed. So, when I met him he said “Let me see your dog.” We had 31 lb females. He looked and he laughed when I brought the dog out. He said, “That little bitch, I’m gonna kill your little bitch tomorrow!” And he was sure he was gonna do that. So, he rolls his bitch but Jack Kelly was a bullshitter and a dreamer. To me, he was no dog man. He just could write magazines and bullshit. The morning came, right in that place where we were locked in, he had all his people or all his friends came or whatever. He had gone to Georgia, he was still living in New York but he was planning on going to live in Georgia later when retired because he was a cop up there. Now, he wanted a terrible, terrible dog. The guy who was winning all the fights all the time was Andre Giroux. But Andre rolled his dogs so much that they would stay in hold on you; they would lock on your face and stay there.
They were on your dogs face, the side of your dogs’ cheek; well your dog couldn’t bite him. It makes the dog panic, he’d wear himself out trying to get loose and when they are all worn out your dog can beat the shit out of him. That’s the way Andre’s dogs beat everybody. Kelly, instead of buying a dog directly from Andre, he takes one of his own bitches and he breeds it to Andre’s dog. He ended up with a terrible hard biting bitch. So he rolled her and she just destroyed everything, 1-2-3. She’d just bite them down and if they didn’t take her off, she’d kill them. Anyway, he had that trophy knife made down in Georgia. He had that trophy knife made by a knife maker. So that was the trophy, the bowie knife. I forget who was the referee. It wasn’t Andre, but Andre was his corner man. We’re in his territory so he’s figured he’s got it made for sure. He figures I didn’t have a chance. So the dogs are released and by three minutes, my bitch is bloodied up. Arteries hit in each ankle. That bitch went to the ankles and bit deep enough where the bloods pouring out of mine. So he hurt mine good within three minutes, but in my situation, most of my dogs would go to your face. Go to your nose or whatever. All my dogs could bite, just like his could bite. Only thing is, my dogs could bite and they were game. My bitch bit his on the nose, grabbed her nose and bit down terrible and his bitch starts screaming. Mine got a grip on the nose and just smashed that nose and lip and the whole bit. His bitch was screaming and couldn’t get loose, so mine just shook her out and had her screaming good. Let go and shot into her shoulder, took a big chunk out of her shoulder, went into her backend and starts shaking her like a rag doll all over the pit. Kelly’s dog had big fangs, snapped in my dogs face, broke loose and tried to run. Tried to jump the pit. My bitch grabbed her by the tail and pulled her back in. Slammed her down and Kelly of course calls a turn and gets a handle on his bitch. Thinks he can get her to scratch, so he goes and this is why he hated me from that day on. He was jealous as a bastard. Anything that I had to do with and the dog was sold to somebody else, there was no mention that I even ever owned that dog. Oh shit, Bulldog Heavens Geraldine, Sextons Bubbles… BULLSHIT! Bubbles was the mother of Virgil, did he breed Virgil? I don’t think so! Bulldog Heavens Geraldine. I sold that dog to them after she got older. I did the breedings, I bred all kinds of god damn Champions and I had ROM bitches. I had them for years. But Jack Kelly, would never let that ever show. Because of what I did to him that day. He invited people. From all different states, from the south, from New England, from Chicago and bragging to everybody ahead of time what he’s gonna do to my bitch. He’s killing her. He was sure. When I put a hurtin on his dog, the nose and the rest of the things I did to her she curred out and tried to jump the pit and my bitch grabbed her tail pulled her back in. He gets her in the corner and he thinks he can get her to scratch. Whatever he was hoping for, he was hoping for a miracle because he was embarrassed he invited all those people. Referee said OK, 25 seconds face your dogs; 5 seconds more release your bitch. He took his hands off her, and he was holding her to face my bitch and she didn’t even want to look at my bitch. When he let go of her, she turned around and ran between his legs and was clawing at the corner of the pit trying to get out of there. He never forgot that ever (laughs).

HOW DID YOU GET STARTED IN THE DOGS?

I had a friend who got Hetricks yard. Hetricks yard was in North East and they were old and they got real old and they either gave him the dogs or got very few dollars because he didn’t have nothing. A guy named, J. Whitsell. He was in a suburb of Pittsburgh so he took the whole yard of Hetricks. So he got about 35 dogs. Well, he didn’t have anywhere to put them. So he leased this property where he was going to have a summer camp for kids and in the winter he stuck all the dogs there. And when his friends came he had to move them all. Which he ended up doing and then he just started selling them off trying to make money off of them and he didn’t know what he had there you know. He was a terrible dog keeper, eventually he got out of the dogs. He got into trouble and got out of the dogs. But uh, that’s how I got started. Then I got introduced to Jack Kelly and Komosinski though him.

I seen Jack Kelly fight at Walter Komosinskis’. Komosinski had conventions up there. Komosinski had guys coming from Florida who had dogs directly off of Maurice Carver and of course they won. Walter lived in Tarentum. 25 miles north of Pittsburgh. Walter of course was an old time dog man. He had the foreign attitude. The way everybody looked at things in America, he didn’t look at it that way. He just, totally different.

CH HOMER: Homer was a hard biting dog, Homers first fight was 44 lbs against Frank Bunce of Michigan. Frank’s dog was called ‘Black Jack’ and was said to be a four time winner. ‘Black Jack’ came from the Carolinas. When released, Homer over powered Black Jack, and got into the stifles. Homer showed terrible mouth, Black Jack was unable to scratch at forty minutes. Black Jack died on the way home.

Match #2. The match was originally between the Bishop Brothers and Ziggy from Canada. The Bishops lived in Buffalo, NY, so they were close to Canada. The Bishops had trouble with their dog and contacted me to bring Homer instead of their dog. This was four weeks in front of the match. I drove to Canada, and the fight took place in Ziggy’s cellar. Ziggy was using a son of Tombstone, CH Savage. Andre Giroux and several of the French Canadians were there. When the dogs were released, it didn’t take very long for Homer to cripple CH Savage. At the 13 minute mark, CH Savage couldn’t push himself off the floor. Both shoulders and both stifles were gone. Ziggy conceded at thirty nine minutes and CH Savage crawled on his belly like a snake to complete a scratch. CH Savage died one hour later.

Match #3 – This was at a convention, and it was against the oldtimer Clyde Mason. His dog was called ‘Thumper’ and he had a good reputation. They drove from Missouri to Pennsylvania so they must have had a lot of confidence in their dog. He was conditioned and handled by Ray Carter. Attending this convention was Dave Adams of GR CH Zebo and GR CH Art fame. Also there was Jack Kelly, editor of the Sporting Dog Journal and Ralph Greenwood all the way from Salt Lake City, Utah. In this match Thumper showed to be conditioned to perfection, and had such great balance that Homer could not throw him to the mat. Thumper was very effective at holding Homer out. He stayed on Homer’s head, and was very strong. Somewhere around thirty-five minutes, Homer seen he couldn’t get to the stifle, so he switched his style and went to the head. He got a good hold on Thumpers lower jaw and he broke it. That was the crucial point of the match. Thumper could not hold Homer out. Now Homer went in for the kill. He was doing terrible damage to Thumpers stifles and between his legs. There was a handle made with Thumper to scratch. He fell in his corner and was counted out at 52 minutes. He died forty five minutes later. Judges voted Homer ‘Best in Show”. In that same convention, I won ‘Best of Opposite Sex’ with CH Tammy (she was GR CH Vigil’s grandmother). Also winning that night was CH Rastus. I had been winning 98% of his fights for quite a while. Clyde Mason supposed to be the old time southern gentlemen or whatever you want to call him. He was not that. He was crying like a baby. I mean he wasn’t really crying tears, but he was bitching, he was, he just couldn’t believe that his dog got beat because his dog kicked ass everywhere. He had a bad attitude about it.

After the third fight, a lot of guys were jealous because they couldn’t win all the time. So a bunch of guys got together, and they had this one black guy in Pittsburgh. He had GR CH Mickey. A lot of guys, they’re all jealous. There’s no way you can go out and win fights forever and have everybody be your friend. They’re gonna all be jealous. They can’t win, and they are going say “How the hell can you do it?” You have to have the dogs, and you have to be the man! The dog is only as good as the man behind him. You go to convention after convention and you win all the fights and you win the trophies every single time, ha, you think they ain’t gonna be jealous or what!?

About a year later, a combine formed to beat me, they were Ralph Livingston, Big Brad of Red Danger fame, Lonny Woodberry who owned GR CH Mickey and Tony Wolfe who was the owner of CH Saloon, a four time winner. The combine was using a dog called Bear and he looked bigger than CH Homer. This fight was at forty five lbs. This Bear dog was sired by Livingston’s CH Freddie who was a littermate to CH Homer. I accepted this challenge even though I couldn’t work Homer as good as I did previous, due to my wife suffering from Leukemia. During the keep, I missed many days taking care of my wife.

On the day of the fight, I told my opponents, I only had three good weeks of work in him but he was fed good for six weeks. The dogs were weighed and brought into the pit. Both weighed 45 lbs. The bear dog started out ahead in the fight and remained there for 16 minutes or more. Cutting up Homer’s legs. Then CH Homer started biting hard and coming back. I talked to him urging him on to hurt Bear. In a short while Bear went down and Ch Homer was biting big holes in the stifles and between the legs. Ch Homer continued to punish Bear and Bear was screaming. The combine conceded at forty four minutes. Bear died that night.

I was inactive for about a year. When Big Brad came to my house, he said he was sent to borrow CH Homer. They want to take him out for his fifth time. My family objected and they let me know how they felt about loaning CH Homer out.

Brad continued to visit trying to convince me to let them take CH Homer. Finally, I relented and let Brad take CH Homer. I was under the impression that Jim Stinson would work CH Homer and that he would go at 45 lbs. Stinson always worked Billy Stepps’ dogs for most all of his fights. Why not this time? In fact, Billy Stepp himself would work CH Homer. Why? Most everyone in the dog game never heard of Billy Stepp working a dog before. Stepp never, ever, handled a dog in the pit. He was known as a gambler. I didn’t know until three weeks before the fight that CH Homer was going into ‘Jeep’. I was really upset that CH Homer was going at 42lbs. Now that CH Homer was five years old, I felt he should fight at 45lbs.

Big Brad and I arrived in Georgia on Saturday morning. The fight was to be Saturday night. Brad and I went to Stepps’ motel room. The first words Billy Stepp said to me were, “Did you ever have trouble with Homer drying out before?” To which I replied “NO!”

Billy Stepp said that he worked Homer and drove from Dayton, Ohio to Southern Georgia. Homer dehydrated and when he arrived in Georgia and Stepp weighed him, Homer’s weight plummeted down to 40 1/2 lbs (this was Thursday). Stepp said he then gave Homer a bucket of water. Homer drank one and one half buckets of water from Thursday to Saturday. Stepp felt he would be OK.

All the mistakes they made up till now were stacking the deck against Homer. Don’t you think they should have given and I.V. or some drink with electrolytes in it? After all does regular water have electrolytes in it? Once you dog dehydrates and you take him to the vets, would they give him water out of the faucet? I don’t think so!

Homer needed an I.V. He needed electrolytes. They give babies Pedialtye don’t they? Why didn’t they give Homer Pedialyte? Do you know why? Because they didn’t know what they were doing. No previous experience.

Butch House from Texas was there before the fight. He said in his opinion Homer was jacked up and it showed in his head. It was sunken in. Butch House said he seen the same thing before in Texas.

On the night of the fight, Billy Stepped picked a friend from Florida to handle. His name was Kenny Sammons. That was another mistake, as Sammons was having a nervous breakdown in the corner as the dogs were facing each other. The referee never said anything. The next thing you know, here comes Jeep wide open, Kenny Sammons was looking to his right talking to someone, outside of the pit. Homers legs were held off the floor then all the spectators yelled to Sammons to “Release your dog!” The yelling scared and startled Sammons and he threw CH Homer out into the pit. Homer hit the floor and his legs buckled and he went down. Before he could get up, Jeep was in his shoulder. Jeep stayed there for 10 minutes. Now it took Homer ten minutes to bite him out. Where was Homers bite? The answer: Left in the gym, due to the mistakes of cutting him below his best weight, and 3 lbs below.

But Why? You will soon find out.

So now from the 10 minute mark on CH Homer had to fight on three legs. Where does that put you in your ability to wrestle? How can you throw your opponent? You are now behind. Yet the longer the fight went, the more determined Homer became and he evened things up. He was so game; he couldn’t realize how bad the odds were stacked against him. The fight went on — and on — and on. Now it was reaching the three hour mark. Crenshaw could feel the pressure. He started feeling he might lose. So he came over to Billy Stepp and asked for a draw. Stepp then asked me, “Should we agree?” I told him “NO!”. The draw was off. Crenshaw was worried that’s why he asked for a draw. Why? Because at the three hour mark Jeep was sitting in a standing position, his tongue was out and he was breathing heavily, and he was out of hold. At this moment in time, CH Homer was in Jeeps stifle, while Jeep paid no attention and was surveying the crowd.

Homer was working away at the three hour mark, shaking out on Jeeps stifle. When he stiffened up and fell over, and he layed stretched out on his side. By now Homer was dying. Fighting this long Homer had to lose some weight. He probably weighed forty lbs or less. So now that Homer fell over and layed on his side not moving, this excited Jeep and he then goes into Homer’s throat. He digs in for a couple minutes, and then comes out of hold, picks up his head, his tongue is out of his mouth, he is breathing heavily. Jeep then makes a sudden right turn, and walks away from a down dog, heading for the pit wall. Crenshaw immediately ran over and grabbed Jeep before he got to the wall. And that was right where I was on that side of the pit. He looked that direction where them people were, and I swear to god almighty, he made a fast walk away from Homer heading toward the pit boards. And I’ve been around, I had 132 fights, I’ve seen a thousand fights. Jeep was going over the pit. My opinion. Like I said, I’ve seen a thousand fights, all big name dogs.

Dogs were handled and taken to their corners. This was somewhere around three hours and fifteen minutes. Sammons was having another nervous breakdown in the corner with Homer. He was very nervous; when the referee said “Face your dogs” Sammons started shaking Homer up and down. This had no purpose what so ever. You are supposed to hold your dog perfectly still. You’re not supposed to call your opponents dog to scratch and by shaking Homer he encouraged Jeep to scratch. That was a crucial mistake. In a long fight 90% of dogs get discouraged. It is very easy for a dog to walk over within a foot of their opponents and get counted out. Sammons should have held Homer still and not moved at all. Anything can happen when the fight goes close to four hours. But anyway Jeep completed his scratch.

Somewhere around three hours and twenty minutes a handle was made, Homer to go. We all thought he was dying when he layed in his side after the three hour mark. Now he has to scratch?

At the referees’ command, “Release your Dog”, Sammons let loose and Homer tries to go hard but is on rubber legs. He goes down, does a couple somersaults, head over heels, his backend comes over his head. He is down. He is now facing his own corner. The referee starts counting. Within seconds I push past all the spectators and runs to Homers outside corner. I yelled in to CH Homer, “Get up Homer, Get up Baby –up–up–up”. When CH Homer heard my voice, he began yodeling and whining and he came out of the corner and fell and got back up stumbling and falling, completing an unbelievable game scratch.

Another handle was made and Jeep completed his scratch. Dogs handled again and Homer was unable to go at three hours and 43 minutes. He died 30 minutes later.

I didn’t know and I didn’t find out until one year later from Frank Bunce the story here. The reason Stepp conditioned and the reason his weight was cut to 42lbs was that Billy Stepp had a $10,000 forfeit to fight his 42lb Grand Champion into Jeep. If he didn’t show up with a 42lb dog he would lose the $10,000. When I found out it was 42 lbs I almost fell over dead. You know, when a dogs real young you might keep him down pretty thin weight. However, when he gets older it’s impossible to cut that dog thin like that.

The 42lb Grand Champion was on Jim Stinson’s yard as Stinson had to condition him. Stinson had to go out somewhere and he left the dogs alone for a couple of hours. When he returned home the Grand Champion came walking up to him on a broken chain.

Stinston was shocked that the Grand Champion was not still locked in battle. Did he walk away from one of the other dogs?

Stinson took this Grand Champion over to the other dog who was jumping four feet off the ground. The Grand Champion dug his feet into the dirt and refused to budge. Stinson picked him up and threw him to CH Ruby, Zebo’s daughter. She began chewing him up. The Grand Champion broke loose and ran, this is the dog they had $10,000 forfeit on. But how stupid are they. Stinson’s supposed to be a big dogman, where? Where? To pull a dog, a 45lb down to 42? A lot of brains. No, it’s because Stinson was the cause of them ready to lose the forfeit, the $10,000.

How could they use him (the GR CH) now; he curred out today. That’s why they had to borrow Homer. Being as this dog got loose, Stepp wouldn’t let Homer out of his sight. Do you want to know the Grand Champion that was originally matched into Jeep and curred out in the yard fight? None other than Grand Champion Angus.

If you don’t believe this, then how come Angus disappeared after the Jeep – Homer fight???

CH Homer was bred to only two females, yet made ROM before CH Jeep. Although Jeep was bred to hundreds and hundreds of bitches.

You know I had to pay $50 to get into see the fight? Sure did, the people collecting the gate, they didn’t know me. They couldn’t care less.

Would you have let Big Brad borrow Homer if you had known the amount of weight they were giving up? I’m not that stupid. My dog, I know his best weight. Besides that, he’s five years old. He’s five years old. Use your head. I don’t have to come after somebody, some certain guy. Whether Billy Stepp did or whatever, I don’t know. Oh yeah, they had the thing up there. They had the $10,000 forfiet because Angus was to fight into him and Angus got his ass beat and quit in Alvin, Texas. That’s why Angus disappeared from the scene. Nobody ever told that. Everybody protects all these things with their lies, but that’s what happened. Jeep was about half the dog Homer was. That’s the easiest way to describe it. There’s no way in the world he can be compared. He’s on top and he’s heading for the pit boards. He’s conditioned good, he’s fought before. Of course he’s gonna come out smokin. But if he’d of got hurt in the beginning real bad and if he’d a got bit like Homer did to some of the other ones he’d a changed his mind. Homer beat better dogs than him. Clyde Masons dog was way badder dog than Jeep. And secondly, how’s my dog gonna work in there with some guy who don’t know what he’s doing. He aint talking to the dog or nothing. The guy handling was lost.

Did you ever let anyone borrow and of your dogs after letting Homer out? No, Nope! My family didn’t want me to do that no kind of way anyway. They didn’t want me to do that. But when I won four times, I figured so can they. But you don’t do that shit. They had to. They couldn’t change the weight. They had $10,000 riding. What were they gonna do? But they didn’t tell me. Nobody told me. They never told me afterwards. I heard a year after the fight, from Frank Bunce. He said I was talking to Stinson, cause he was buying dogs from Stinson and had been talking to Stinson. He said and Stinson told him how it happened. Then he told me, it was one year after. There was many things that happened in the dog game that they covered over and hid.

CH RASTUS: Looking at all the dogs, I had more than one good dog here. Rastus. I got Rastus from Pat Patrick. Some guy bought a dog from Maurice Carver, he won. He beat some Champion in Tennessee; beat some other guys, he was positive to win. I hit an artery in his shoulder, and the blood shot. Frank Bunce was there. It shot about 4 feet. The blood shot and it made a big noise when I hit this, this white dog right from Maurice Carver. These guys knew Dave Adams and they matched into me. They paid $5,000 for this dog. They might have kicked ass before, it wasn’t there day though. That dog Rastus, he was a Champion dog. He took that dog out, he took out that shoulder and weakened him and then he went into the throat. People are stupid. I told them, I says “You better give up right now, just go ahead and save your dog.” He wouldn’t do it. Wouldn’t do it. He was cocky. Cocky assholes. Just real cocky. So I just went ahead and just, I was there to win and that’s it. I try to help you, and you don’t want help. So, then he says, “I got no money to get home!” I says, “Well, tough shit. I tried to help you before. You didn’t want any help.”

GR CH VIRGIL: Virgil, I went in a convention. Somebody named Chickaman put it on. Now the Chickaman was the only son. He was a miner. His dad spoiled him. He gets in the dogs and he thinks he’s better than everybody. It’s just his attitude. It’s the way his dad brought him up. So I’m talking to him on the phone to come to this convention with Virgil. I’m gonna match into one of the dogs that was the littermate to that GR CH Mikey and GR CH Trouble. They’re littermates. There was another one, and his name was CH Elmo. Well he just killed somebodys dog in thirty minutes. So, they called me on. So I’m in this fight. They told me don’t bring you’re scales we ain’t gonna let you use them. We’re going to use a balance scale because they bought the one off of Walter Komosinski. He had one of them old fashioned ones, balance ones where you put the weight hooks on. I had four scales and I had one scale that cost a lot of money. About a $200 scale, real good scale. All brass and everything. Really good. So I knew my dog was on the weight because I had more than one scale to make sure, I didn’t want to make no mistakes. And I had a test weight. The Chickaman, he said not to bring your scales so I didn’t. I got there, he fights first. He’s such an asshole, that he goes and he fights a female. Females are never fought first. Never. He did. That’s how much of an idiot he was. Then I go to fight, you know, the second fight. I’m gonna go to weigh my dog to show he’s on the weight. He took the scale and he didn’t bring it. What’s this shit!? You tell me not to bring it, now you don’t have it. What a young Jack off! Where he’s coming from… He’s just a young asshole! I weigh Virgil, he’s trying to tell me I’m 2 ½ lbs light. I says, “I was never 2 ½ lbs light in my life of matching dogs. Now I guess the guy I’m into, he’s right on the weight too?” It’s a black guy, got some killing dog. Big black son of a bitch. He weighs, he’s on the weight and I’m 2 ½ lbs light. I says, “No, your 2 ½ lbs over is what it is. Where’s your test weight and your garbage scale?” He says, “Oh, I got a dumbbell.” I says, “Stick that dumbbell up your ass. Yins are trying to cheat me. Go get your dog, you got 2 ½ lbs on me, but go get your dog.” He gets his dog and his dog barnstorms and hits two arteries in Virgil. I’m thinking, boy this son of a bitch can bite. He’s got one bubble in his muzzle and one in his shoulder. Hit artiereis on him. He gets Virgil down for about 8 minutes. I just stand over Virgil and just start talking to him. I tell him, “Get up out of there. Get up out Virgil! Up, up, up!” Virgil bit him in the chest from the bottom, and struggled to get to his feet. When Virgil righted himself and got on his feet, he still had that dogs chest in his mouth. He pressed that dog over his head. The dogs front legs fell over Virgils back, the dogs rear legs were suspended in mid-air. He didn’t have one foot on the floor. So Virgil pressed him over his head, he dropped over Virgils back, the back legs suspended in mid-air. Virgil then slammed him to the floor. Before he could get up, Virgil ran on him real quick and he bit him around the chest or belly or whatever, and he starts running across the floor with him. Like a sweeper. You know, just driving with both back legs and he had big massive stifles. He’s running with this dog in his mouth, and this dog couldn’t get lose. He slid him all the way across the floor until he hit the pit boards. As soon as he hit the pit boards, he let go of where he was at and he went right into the kidneys. He bit through the kidney and then he lifted his lips. He curled his lips back where you could see his gums. You could see big long fangs that Virgil had. You could see all that gum and big long fangs. He pulled them out of the kidney, and then he drove them back in. You could see the fangs go right in the dogs kidney, all the way up to the gum line and he did that three times. That dog stretched out stiff and that was the end of him. It was 30 minutes. That was a brother to two Grand Champions. He bit the dust like all the other ones did too. See, the thing to me; Crenshaw can say what he wants, STP can say what he wants, so could the rest of them. But everybody came against me, got killed. Did they kill everybody? (Laughs)

CH WILEY: Now Wiley was one fantastic dog. I had Wiley and I rolled him when he was 14 months old against his brother and his brother was equal like him. I thought, I never seen a dog at 14 months old that could battle like that. I’ve never seen dogs at 14 months that could fight like that. So, Wileys grandfather was Cholly Boys brother. What happened in his fight, this guy calls me from Detroit. Some white guy. Bud Carpenter, he calls me and he wants me to come in at 37. I says, “I don’t have no dog 37 except my 14 month old dog. I ain’t bringing my dog like that up there.” In fact, by the time he called me he was 15 months old. He said, “That’s what they want, 37 lbs.” I said, “Well, I’m not bringing that dog, I’ll bring other dogs. I have other dogs that’s old enough. Three years old, four years old. You know, 43, 45 shit like that.” He said, “No we want the 37.” I says, “No, I can’t bring him cause he’s too young.” So he keeps calling me back. He’s an old white haired guy. He said, “The other guy out there, his dogs only 18 months old.” I said, “Well if he’s 18 months old, then I got faith in this dog cause this is one bad son of a bitch. I’ll bring him.” When I got there, of course those dirty bastards; now why would this old guy, I mean he was old. If he was 75 or whatever he was, he aged big time. He was old! Why would he do it? I didn’t see no connection why would want to do it. Here’s a dog I’m going into is going into his championship. And it’s double Carvers Stompanoto. He’s a bad dog. Larry Kipton. Black guy. The dogs name was Pee Wee. All black. And Wiley was all black. Wiley’s conditioned really perfect and he’s all gun-ho to go. He’s real young and he’s whacked out of his mind to battle and he’s pointed to the day and exact minute of the fight he’s ready to get in there and get it on right now. He can’t wait to get it on. We get in there and he rushes into the dog, tries to put it on him. The other dog goes to the face and is holding him out. So they go back and forth on the face holding each other. And even though he was young, he was 17 months old. I took him in the fight at 17 months old, which was awfully young to take a dog going into a dog going for his championship. But, he didn’t know. What’s he know? He didn’t know nothing about it. What he does, he breaks loose from the head holds, drops low and that dog shot over his head, and he went straight up and hit him in the throat. He bit hard into the throat and he start rooting in and lifting him. He’s lifting his feet about 3 or 4 inches off the ground. He was ramming him and lifting him up, lifting him off the floor. Next thing you know, blood shoots out everywhere. Bloods pouring on the floor. He won’t come out of the throat, the first fight he stayed there, wouldn’t come out. Would not come out at all. Dogs backend starts shaking, he got weak and all he could, his eyes would look at the crowd, but he couldn’t do nothing because Wiley still had his throat. Had him right by the throat and he punctured through his jugular vein. He bit through his jugular vein. So, his backend starts shaking, finally he’s sitting down. Then he laid down, and then Wiley’s just working him over going deeper in the throat and they threw in the towel at 22 minutes. Their dog died anyway in 30. There’s a 17 month old dog that did that. Then I beat Captain America and then I beat some other guy. His last name was Sonnier. Like a French name. He had a good dog, but he had to pick him up. Because that dog was just taking him apart. When I beat Captain America, with a brother to GR CH King Arthur I beat him with Wiley. You know, it’s the idea. You’re just fortunate enough to get the right dogs.

CH ZERO: If Jeep would have come in against this dog, and this dog, he could of fought at Jeeps weight. Zero. Jeep would have ran out of there in 30 minutes. This Zero would have beat him so bad, that he would have ran for his life. Zero was a high pressure dog. The way he got you, I don’t care if you won 17 fights. When he’s in the corner and you’re getting released to come to fight. What you think he’s gonna do, is meet you in the middle of the pit, you’re gonna start fighting huh? Well you better think again bud, cause he’s figuring how to cripple you before you start in the first seconds. I took one fight, I went to Kentucky. Ken Allen took the fight. He takes the fight and asks me to bring Zero. I traveled down there and there was all these blacks waving $100 bills. They’re all smiling with their gold teeth waving $100 bills. I release Zero, when they reached the center of the pit, the dog reached for Zero, and Zero threw himself on his back. The dog shot over his head, and he reached up and grabbed his joint. And he bit him threw the belly. He pierced his bladder. Within seconds he come off the bottom and slammed that dog and put him on the bottom and I looked down and I see the pee running out his belly. And we’re talking three seconds, he punctured his bladder. (Laughs) So how do you fight a dog like that? I fought somebody else; let’s see what I did to them. I pulled him too thin and I beat a dog, the guy was so mad that I took his dog, and beat him to where he couldn’t scratch. He wanted to shoot him. But the dog was incapacitated so bad he couldn’t do nothing. So I said leave him here, so I kept him around for a roll dog. I start rolling him, the dog was so good I matched and beat somebody. I beat Bunce or somebody. Then I beat somebody else, then I sold him to a friend and he won again. Dog had ability, bite, enough gameness, whether he got counted out the first time, whatever, he was too young, he never made any bad moves after that. That was a dog called CJ. Mike Sogans CJ. I matched into a dog Texas Ron had and he just killed somebody. He just matched a couple months before in a convention and he went into the kidneys and killed a dog. So everybody is afraid of him and Rocco calls me and tells me, “Oh, Texas Ron is saying everybody’s afraid to match into him.” That’s because he called Rocco on and Rocco didn’t want to fight him. Rocco was afraid. So Rocco tried to shove it to me so I’d take him out of the way. So he wouldn’t be after him or embarrass him or whatever. I agree to go and fight in Texas Ron’s cellar. Right in his house. This dog is a pretty rough dog they got and you know; he just killed a dog. We release the dogs, and they are running across to meet each other. They come right at each other, at the last second Zero jumped to the side; that dog went past him. But he whipped and he grabs his nose. Zero bit his nose, took a hold of it but he was running so fast he kept going. He went right past with his nose in Zeros mouth. Zero braced his legs and pulled him back to an abrupt stop. Where his whole body weight slammed against and almost pulled his nose off. He was screaming 5 seconds into the fight. I mean, screaming cause he really got that nose jarred. Zero went to work immediately, starts beating the shit out of him. Went to work in the throat, lifted him off the floor. Kept rootin in the throat, shutting his air off, lifting him off the floor, lifting him off the floor. The initial thing where he threw him off totally was when he side stepped the dog where the dog kept going and he got his nose, and that really got him. He beat him and pressured him and put the pressure on so bad, he went back up for a second and just kept on kept on just pressure, pressure, pressure the worst pressure case you ever want to see in your life the pressure he put on him. Shut his air off like the other dog thought he was gonna die. That dogs name was Evil. And he thought he was gonna die because Zero kept shutting his air off. He tried to jump the pit and as he jumped the pit, Zero was so fast, he grabbed his tail and pulled him back in an slammed him on the floor and went in his throat and a quick flurry in the throat and he busted up everything in his throat good. The dog had to scratch, couldn’t do it, wouldn’t do it. It was about 44 minutes. Zero was Virgils littermate brother. He was a hell of dog.

ZERA 2X: And I had a daughter out of him (Zero) that I killed a dog in 25 min down in Kentucky. I went down there and this guy was the dirtiest, lousiest guy I ever seen in my life. Just a low life, never been anywhere where he could ever say he was a gentlemen. He probably don’t have anybody in his family that are gentlemen or ladies, you know because he’s a jack off. He tried everything he could to dirty me out. Cheat me, dirty me. I gave him his reward for the dirty shit that he did before I came to the pit that day. I broke his dogs muzzle. I bit his dog between the eyes with such force that it split the muzzle and both fangs went sideways. Then she come out of there, went in her armpit and bit her in the armpit. His dog was dead. They couldn’t figure out how she’s dead. That was Zera; Zero’s daughter. When she bit her in the arm pit, she broke 4 ribs and punctured her through the heart. That was 25 minutes. My bitch was dragging her around the pit. That guy wouldn’t pick up and the referee wouldn’t say nothing. I wanted to get out of there and everybody was giving me a bunch of shit and how do end the fight. It’s over, your dogs dead. Well, he aint gonna pay me. You know, they’re all on their side so at an hour we’re still there. I says, “Okay, yins are all dirty bastards really trying to cheat me.” Anyway, I scratched to a dead dog, believe it or not. Just to show them. But I gave them a warning. He was holding the dog sideways, I says, “Let me tell ya, I’ve been a gentleman this far. But when I release my bitch and she comes across there. You drop your dog on the floor and my dog hits that wall and breaks her teeth out.” I said, “The next step, I’ll be coming over and I’m going bust all your teeth out.” And he held his dog! (Laughs)

CH CHOLLY BOY: One time, we went to Rhode Island on Captain Americas landfill. Well on a landfill, you’re dumping garbage and rubbish. What does that breed? Trillions of rats. This is Cholly Boys first fight. So he kills Captain Americas dog by one hour, but he won’t let him loose. He will not come out of hold. He dragged him around up until the 2 hour mark. And Captain America would not give up the fight. The referee never even did anything. Everybody tried to cheat me again. I quit talking to him (Cholly Boy) and I just kept moving to where he couldn’t see me so he could wonder what happened to me so he could come out of hold. Otherwise I’d a been there for days. That’s what I did, I just quit talking to him, and finally he come out of hold and wondered where I went, and I grabbed him. Of course, his dog couldn’t scratch. But Captain America, he’s a weasel. He’d let them dogs sit there forever, he hinges to the last second trying to do anything he can to pull it off.

It was about a million rats running around on the ground. We’re in the car, we’re headed to the garage building we’re gonna fight in. Peoples in the pick up truck ahead and they got their feet hanging over the edge of the tailgate. We go, “What the hell’s that?” Something’s moving like a big rug moving. No, it was a rug of rats. They were side by side by the millions all over the ground. It was all moving. There was that many rats! Everybody with me says, “Holy Hell, I can’t believe what we’re looking at!”

OLD CHARLIE: He was cold. A lot of people say they would never breed to a cold dog. Depends who his parents were. If you inherit some genes from him, what do you think you’re gonna get from his parents? And that was Homer and Gearldine. Both ROM’s. People can say all they want. Did they breed all the Champions and Grand Champions I did?

Favorite Dogs: I would put Cholly Boy up there. Virgil was a killing dog; all power. Cholly Boy was a smart dog. Cholly Boy didn’t go out there and try to kill you. Although at some times, he put it on you. He hit an artery on STPs Revenge. And STP said Revenge was going to be a 6 or 7 time winner. And he probably would have been. But what I did to him, I made a total fool out of that dog. Cholly Boy took him to school to teach him what you do. They threw in the towel. He (Revenge) chased for over an hour, couldn’t get a bite. I never gave Cholly Boy penicillin after the fight. Too smart, he stayed right out of his way.

CRENSHAW & STP: Here’s where I put it, Crenshaw and STP. They had the most fights and they were the most well known guys and they weren’t easy to beat, you know, for most people. But for me, I couldn’t care less; because I had killing dogs that were game. And at anytime, they could hold them out for a while maybe, but eventually I’m gonna get you. And my dogs wont’ run out of air. Most of my fights that I’ve been in you won’t see my dogs tongue ever out of his mouth. I went against devastating dogs that could bite your dogs’ leg right off. I had my dogs go so deep into their ear and bite and hit that nerve in there. You know the toughest dogs in the world, I had my dogs go right in his ear and deep down in his ear and hit that nerve. They start growling and then crying and growling and crying and back and forth and they wanted out of there and I wouldn’t let my dog off their ear. I punished them so severely by the time they had a scratch, they are going to stay in the corner and they don’t want no more. Or I had dogs go on the nose, because a dog can take punishment in the body, he won’t take it in the nose. I had a bad battle before; I went into TKO kennels, from New York. Everybody says, oh you’re in trouble. They got a killer back end dog. Never been bit in the nose. She took my bitches shoulder out. First five minutes of the match. Then she went back and tried to do it again, and my bitch was sore there, mine grabbed her by the nose. And when she bit her in the nose, her tusk went inside her lip. Up in the gum and lip, all the way, cause she could bite hard. The fangs come down on top of the muzzle. That bitch might have been going for her championship, but she was screaming bloody murder and then once she did that, that’s a signal to my bitch to really put it on her. Which she starts whipping her and shaking her. I told them, TKO, I can see it right in front of me right now, you better pick your dog up at 30 minutes. They wouldn’t say yes, no, boo, they wouldn’t answer. I said, “Well I’m here for business and this is business and this is the way it goes.” So I talk to my bitch and I tell her to really, really put it on her bad. So I think they let it go another 10-12 minutes and then they threw in the towel. I helped them try to save their dog but she died anyway. Dog died right there.

Crenshaw and STP, I’ll put them up there, you know the highest because they’re the most well known guys. I’ll give them both credit for that. Now as far as Crenshaw and STP, their well known and they had a lot of fights. But all the dogs that I had, if they’d of come into them they’d a got their dogs killed. That’s it. Snake Jr bit a dog one time, one bite in the shoulder. You think a dog could go into shock and die from a shoulder bite? He did. He did, he did. Now my friend Bryan, he was a good close right hand man. He was a Vietnam Marine and he was a hard core son of a bitch. Real hard core guy. So I gave him Snake JR and he pulls him way down below his weight. But he was a biter, really a biter. So he had took the bottom for 16 minutes and I look at my watch and I say, “Oh Jeez, Bryan you really screwed up.” This dog that he was against, he won two fights. He was going for his championship. He had Snake down on the bottom and Dave Adams friends were there. Snake from the bottom reached up and grabbed his shoulder. He was down, getting shook all over the pit for 16 minutes, he reached up, grabbed the shoulder and he just calmly didn’t do nothing, he just paced himself till he got his head together cause he got shook up so bad he didn’t know what state he was in he was shook up so bad. So he hung on to that shoulder. Slowly he got back on his feet. Now he’s standing up facing that dog, he’s still in the shoulder hold. And he moved his feet back and forth. He set his feet. Cause they bite all the way down, the whole body like that where they can really crunch down, up his back and up his neck and the whole bit. He set his legs and he continued to bite on the shoulder a full bite. And all of a sudden that dog fell straight on the floor, BAM! His chin hit the floor and he stared straight ahead. And he never moved. And everybody says, “How the hell can that be. He’s resting, this, yah, yah, yah”. And another guy says, Dave Adams friends, they said “Hey, look at his eyes, his eyes are all glassy. That dog’s going in shock how the hell can that be”. And all the blacks say “No, no, no”. That dog stayed there and he could not, they wouldn’t pick up and Snake just kept chewing his shoulder. They had to pick up in 30 minutes. So they picked up, and they tried to revive their dog but it wasn’t happening. So Adams guys who bought dogs from him, Sexton and something. Sexton and somebody else. They come over to this dog that Snake just bite his, it’s like he shot him. That’s how hard Snake bit him. And they couldn’t figure out how that could happen from a shoulder bite. So he took his foot and he moved his foot up, like to bend his leg, and then he straighten it out. All the fragments flew out of his shoulder. Of bones, in about 30 pieces fell out. That’s how he shattered the bone. Like pieces of toothpicks, like bone fragments coming out. That’s why he went in instant shock. This is gruesome, gory stuff. Now, but this is what happened, but this is how some dogs could bite. As far as Crenshaw, or STP playing with me, they may as well jump in a cage with some Tigers because look what happened to them.

FRANK BUNCE: Bunce was a really good guy. I sold him dogs and every god damn dog he had a grand champion. He had Grand Champion Arrow and he had a dog called Bum. And Frank was a heavy drinker. He matched in to Rocco’s Hauncho. Up in Detroit, there was 150 people there. He won with Arrow and Arrow was a Komosinski cross mixed with my blood. Bum the same way. Rocco’s dog roughing him up all the way and Bunce was drinking, didn’t work the dog good, over worked him probably so he was weak and screwed up. Rocco would bring a dog in, in good shape. So his dog is kicking Bunce’s dogs’ ass. Everybody there thinks and figures it’s over. He’s down; he’s been down the whole fight. This dog called Bum. Bum, he’s determined not to lose. So he got a hold of the ear from the bottom. Rocco’s dog was fine as long as he was ahead. Now Bunces dog grabs his ear and he stays on it. So Rocco’s dog wants to get loose from that ear hold, but he can’t’. So he starts whining. When he starts whining, that encourages Bunces dog to go after him worse. Bunces dog after being on the bottom the whole fight for 20 minutes was never on his feet in 20 minutes, now he stood up. Everybody in the whole crowd, they were all cheering for his dog, 150 people cheering for his dog. He proceeded to kick Rocco’s dogs’ ass and Rocco’s dogs crying and making all kinds of noise. Rocco gave up, dog beat him. So every dog I sold him, he won with. And then he won trophies in a lot of them. Best in Show, he won Best in Show with a few of them. And Gamest in Show. Everything he got from me, he won with. Bunce was a real honest guy, he was really square, but he was a drinker. Yeah he was a drinker.

DAVE ADAMS: Dave Adams was a premier dog man. He’d been around way back. He’d been around. They had been in the dogs before me and from down in there part of Cincinnati. They were in the suburbs of Cincinnati, farm country and they were allowed to do whatever they wanted. They did whatever they wanted and they had ended up getting dogs from people. They had the money, they start buying dogs. They bought Double Ot. The Texans start selling dogs. But the Texans they thought that because they were from Texas they were better than everybody else. They sold Double Ot for $2,500 bucks, way back that’s a lot of money, that’s like $5,000 now days. $2,500 bucks for Double Ot, Double Ot had already quit. See how dirty they were. So Adams never looked to see. He never checked the magazine, it was in there. So, he matches into Big Brad. Big Brad got Red Danger. I was there and they were fighting it out. Double Ot was a son of Eli Jr. I believe and one of them rough dogs. Rough ass Eli dogs. Red Danger went to the ear and Double Ot was searching for the stifle. So the fight went on and on and on. Double Ot turned. So this is where David Adams made his mistakes, prior to that he was doing good. Until he starts buying dogs off the Texans. Because they didn’t give him nothing. They shafted him all the way. Where they thought they were so superior to everybody, in their dreams. So what happened, Double Ot made a turn, he was to scratch, so they start scratching. As the fight went on, the referee says “Release your dog.” Double Ot stood in the corner. He starts counting, “One, two, three, four…” then Double Ot came. Next time; Red Danger to come. Red Danger stood there, “One, two, three, four…” then the next time it was up to the five count before they’d come out, then up to seven! And then finally Double Ot quit. But they were both staying in the corner. This is how crazy, bullshit that I’ve seen. Adams was a tough guy to beat. Big Brad matched into Adams several times, beat him every single time. Dave Adams beat everybody else, but he couldn’t beat Big Brad. Outside of that, Freddy Bowling he would fight here and there. He would, you know, get somebody else’s dog usually. Take somebody else’s dog and bring it in.

(Dave Adams) had to humanity. He had no respect for nothing. No dogs. If I’d won, I would not tell the guy, “Oh, he’s gonna die. You have to put him out of his misery.” “Well how do I do that?” “Well, here I’ll give ya an axe.” I mean this is insanity. As far as, this ain’t my idea of dog men. You don’t do that. He’s killing that dog; he’s hitting that dog with an axe in the head. I mean, if you can’t do it right, then don’t do it at all! There was nothing wrong with that dog and he killed him. I could look in the dogs’ eyes. It was clear as can be. He just got cut up. He had some big cuts, that’s all. Go get the staple gun, pull him together, staple him. Look, you can have cuts like this and that. That don’t mean nothing, if they’re not deep inside you, nothing there. When I had Virgil and I had them other dogs, and I had Homer. Dave Adams didn’t want no parts of that.

BILLY STEPP: Billy Stepp was a gangster. He had all gangster connections. Mess with him too much, you’ll disappear. As a dog man, he didn’t know nothing. He was a gambler, he was a backer. Many of the guys were; they were the guys that put the money up. Somebody else did the work. Everybody can’t be a dog man. It’s very simple.

STINSON: Stinson he was, he wasn’t the most honest guy in the world. He poisoned his, he had a partner. He was in the asphalt business. King Glover, a black guy. And he matched into King Glover and he poisoned his dog. His own friends said that. Stinsons’ friends is the ones that said that, that he poisoned Glovers dog.

JACK KELLY: Kelly’s biggest thing, we’ll give him credit for putting out a good magazine. That’s as far as it goes.

Walter Komosinski: Walter Komosinski would smack Jack Kelly in mouth too… Walter would punch anybody in the mouth! If you screwed with him or pushed him around, you do something to him… I was his best friend for 18 years. I was the referee that day in that fight, against Ralph Livingston, 39 years old. Then Ralph lost the fight, his dog quit. So he walks out of the barn and he sics his dog on one of Walters’ young dogs outside there. The young dog, grabbed Ralph Livingston’s dog but he was only like 13 months old. Walter thought his dog was crying, but it was Ralphs’ dog crying. Walter says, “He’s only a young dog; get your dog off of him.” You know. And then besides that, he was supposed to fight two weeks later, he came early that day Livingston did. And then he didn’t have the money to pay the bet! And then he goes and sics his dog on Walters’ dog, his 13 month old. And Walter told him to leave go, and he didn’t do it. He says, “I’ll make you leave go”, he came over and uppercutted him. He went flying. And he hit the wall of Walter’s barn, slide down on his ass. He get up and Walter had glasses on. He whipped them off his face, folded them put them in his pocket, came in again, pulled back a right hand and blasted him with a right hand and dropped him a second time. Walter’s 80, he’s 39. So, I went and grabbed Livingston I figured oh shit, this young guy is gonna be so mad, he’s gonna kill Walter. When I grabbed him, to hold him back he said, “Don’t hit me again Walter, I’m leaving!” Hahaha. So the old time people was crazy huh!? I seen a lot of crazy stuff, let me tell you.

ON CONDITIONING: When your dog is in perfect shape, and I conditioned. Crenshaw never conditioned as good as me. Neither would STP. They couldn’t keep up to me. Never. They tried. STP did. Captain America did. I mean all the other guys, couldn’t do it. People hired people. You know to condition for them. I beat their ass anyway. But when they hired me, I had to take that 600 dog; son of Mayday. The Cubans sent me $1,500 bucks told me I was working this dog and bringing him down. They sent the dog up. I went into Crossroads Kennels. Both dogs were going for their Championship. I had my dog so strong, that 600, and I just pointed to the backend talking to him… always in front of their eyes. Instead of in the stifles he bit him in the kidneys and that dog gave it up right there. He had a fatal bite, he knew he was gonna die and he didn’t want to fight anymore. They threw in the towel, their dog died. Crossroads Kennels. Every dog I conditioned for Ken Allen won; never lost once.

Flirt Pole is the secret. I took Cholly Boy (working him for J.Rods Whitefoot match) and I had a flirt pole. I could excel with a flirt pole. There ain’t nobody in America could ever keep up once I used a flirt pole. I had an area back there where I used. I’d go in a circle. I had him jumping; I made him jump for the hide on the flirt pole. I had him jumping. I start jumping (25) jumps. Go around a circle, he start chasing it, then I start lifting it. Where he’d go run and jump and I’d move it. He miss it, he’d hit the ground turn in a second, come back a second time and I’d lift it again, he’d miss it. So I had him jumping back and forth, back and forth. I start about (50) jumps. Next day I started adding about (25) a day. I peaked him a few weeks before, I was doing (450) jumps in the morning and (450) jumps in the night. I was gonna try and do (1,000) jumps a day but I had to do (450) in the morning and (450) in the night and I was putting all kinds of stuff in him like feeding him liver and I had carboplex, different carbohydrate powders and feeding the liver I got his blood count up real good. He was doing (900) jumps a day. When he was doing that, I never got past that. That’s the way we went into the match and he never showed no strain at all.

Jesse Rods had that Whitefoot dog. He killed a Champion of STPs and one of Captain Americas. Jack Kelly said this is the baddest dog in America at 45/46 lbs. Cholly Boy beat him.

On Over Working a dog: You just gotta watch your dog, if he starts dragging ass where he… If you walk him and you hand walk him, and he’s pulling you all the time, when he stops pulling you and starts walking beside or behind you. You’ve overworked him right there. You gotta quit. A lot of guys, I heard Frank Rocca say if you have to give off two days to rest, then you have to forfeit because your dog will never be ready. Bullshit. I’ve gave two days off many times. That don’t mean a god damn thing. Never heard of it, that’s his thinking and other peoples.

Frank Rocca, he lost every time he matched into a dog of Frank Bunces or one of the black guys in Pittsburgh that he matched into called Smoker. I bred that dog, I bred him and I sold him as a 16 month old pup to Ralph Livingston. Well Ralph Livingston goes and sells him to this black yo-yo. Well he goes out and he beats Dave Adams, then he beats Big Brad and he beats Rocca. He gives Roccas dog a severe beating. He won four times over known people. That Smoker was a hell of a dog. Oh, he collected a forfeit on Angus.

ON SPORTSMANSHIP/DOGMEN: Here’s a guy with a dog, if his dogs getting screwed up, don’t you think the guy has to give up? See there’s nothing I can do. Should I lose because he’s an asshole? No, it’s not fair to my dog. But you meet people, if got my dog hurt; do you think I’d leave him in there to get butchered? I’d pick my dog up right away and walk out of there. I’d come back and get you another day. My way of looking at it. But people don’t look at it that way. I mean people, get in stuff. If my dog starts ripping one little bit. I wouldn’t put him through it. I give up and get out. Okay, you win. Here’s your money. People are assholes, let me tell ya. I don’t believe in that kind of shit. I do not feel you should go, you know; if you see you can’t win, forget it. Your pride? Bullshit. Don’t expect your dog to go through what you couldn’t go through.

Everybody can’t be a dogman! This guy sees that and he wants to do it because you do it. If you ain’t got it in ya, and you ain’t really dedicated you ain’t getting no where. You don’t show off and brag to everybody, you go and prove that you’re that good.

ON SCHOOLING/HANDLING: I could look at something right now with a dog. You could have 30 people there; you’re all lost in the fog. I know what’s going on right now. That’s why I get in fights and got right out of them. My dogs in bad trouble. I acted like your losing. I’ll scare them. I never showed ever one sign of weakness. I just talked to my dog. I could have been worried to death but I just stayed in front of my dog and said, “OK”. Komosinski told me, “Don’t stand behind him like assholes.” They stand behind them like assholes, dog says where you at you jack off, I’m in the fight of my life and you’re lost! You go in front of them! So I always went in front of my dogs eyes. When I did, he looked at me wagged his tail and fought really hard. So when I was in trouble, I’d come out of it.

Is there anything different you would do if you could do it all over? I would trust less people. Everybody’s jealous out there.